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Celina’s podcast always contains a new tip or idea that I haven’t thought of that would make a difference in my life. Love this podcast!
Thank you so much Tanya! You totally made my day with this lovely review!
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I thought Apple Podcast is the only way to leave me a review, and
some of you who listen from Android phones asked me how you could write a review for me, and there wasn’t a way until now, I don’t think, and I actually just found out about this new review site called Podchaser where you can write me a review even from your Android phone! So yay! I was happy to learn about this. I’ll include the link in my shownotes, and maybe you will be the first person to write me a review on Podchaser, that would totally make my day.
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Ok, so, as some of you may know, I have the biggest sweet tooth.
And the things that’s keeping me company while I create new episodes for my podcast are coffee and chocolate… I always have some good chocolate nearby and they really seem to really help me with my writers block, and my creative block. I actually just ate some before starting to record this episode.
And the past year has been tough, so these simple pleasures, like indulging on a good piece of chocolate really helped me to boost my mood and happiness level.
So I think chocolate is always a good idea…
So one time when I was in Paris, (of course this is before Covid) there were so many chocolate stores, macaroons shops, and dessert cafes that I wanted to visit, but I was only there for a few days, so I didn’t have enough time to go to all the places I wanted, so I started eating dessert for breakfast. Yes this is true. And I was so happy to have visited all the places I wanted to check out! Omg just talking about this makes me really want to go back to Paris!
So yes, I love sweets and I am sharing with you today one of my favorite episodes from my last season, a conversation I had with Katrina Markoff, the founder of one of my absolute favorite chocolate brand, Vosges Haut Chocolat.
I though many of you may not have had a chance to listen this episode yet, so I wanted to share it you again, since Valentine’s Day is coming up in about 2 weeks.
Here is a little background story about why I decided to interview Katrina.
After graduating from law school, I came to NYC to study for my bar exam, and I was living in in Soho at the time. And of course I was staring at law books all day trying to study, and the only highlight of my day was to take a break and visit Vosges store in Soho to buy some chocolate.
It was like a brief escape from my depressing reality of having to study all day. Since I was going to the store like almost everyday, people at the store started to recognize me, asked me questions, and I told them I was studying for the bar exam, and how hard it was. They would give me pep talks and said you can do this, and wished me good luck on the exam, sometimes even give me free chocolate. And I felt so much better and it totally made my day because I just had this nice interaction with really kind people.
And the store was really beautiful too, all purple with chandeliers, and most importantly the chocolate was so delicious!
So when I was scheduled to go to Chicago to give a talk (of course this was before Covid), I decided to reach out to Katrina to see if I could interview her, because I knew her company was headquarted in Chicago.
And of course I sent a cold-email, because I didn’t know her at the time, and I emailed her company and asked them to please forward my email to Katrina, and I wrote this email sharing my story and why I wanted to interview her. And I was so excited to hear from her team saying that she said yes to the interview, and that she would love to do it, she loved my story too! J
So I’m so happy to share with you the conversation I had with Katrina Markoff who created this beautiful chocolate brand.
After studying chemistry and psychology in college, Katrina moved to Paris to pursue her dream of studying the culinary arts at Le Cordon Bleu. She then worked at the legendary restaurant, El Bulli in Spain, which was one of the toughest restaurants in the world to get a reservation at the time with more than 3000 people on the waiting list.
She then embarked on a journey to travel all around the world. Her travels inspired her to create Vosges by blending exotic ingredients, like curry, bacon, and chipotle chili with premium chocolate.
Katrina shared with me how trusting her intuition and following her heart led to an amazing journey where all of her life experiences came together to create this beautiful chocolate brand.
I hope you enjoy the conversation.
Celina Lee
Katrina, I’m so excited to start this conversation! We are at Vosges Haut-Chocolat, did I pronounce that right? The temple in Chicago, surrounded by beautiful chocolate and so many beautiful things. So thanks so much for being here. Let’s start with your childhood. Where did you grow up?
Katrina Markoff
Oh, thank you so much. I grew up in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and I’m Macedonian so grew up in sort of that more ethnic background household, a family that cooked a lot. I grew up next to my grandparents like literally next door. So my mom, who was a single mom who had to work and she worked a lot, was gone a lot and so I would hang out with my grandmother and we would cook a lot. She would make her own yogurt, her own filo dough. So, yeah, so I grew up in Indiana bit with a very close family.
Celina Lee
So you grew up in a family of entrepreneurs. I think your mom was also an entrepreneur. How did that affects you and who you want it to be when you grew up?
Katrina Markoff
Yeah, I guess many immigrant type families, you often become entrepreneurs and scrappy and try to figure things out. And so my mom had needed to help my grandfather after he had a heart attack with her business. And she was really young, really, like 21. And so she jumped into that business.
Celina Lee
What kind of business was it?
Katrina Markoff
It was janitorial supplies. So totally different.
Celina Lee
Different from what you do.
Katrina Markoff
Yes. And she was really, really good at it. And she was, she never finished college. And she was incredibly charismatic, and optimistic and quirky personality. And I think she did so well selling. And in the 80s, when the EPA was formed, and all the janitors were dealing with the waste. And they were just really dumping it down the drain. She started working with them to recycle the waste. And so she kind of started this, she did start this like hazardous waste removal recycling business. And so I saw a very much sort of very meager beginning, I’ll say, we didn’t have much money, and my mom kind of made it and she created this environmental business, and it was just really cool. And she was always like, if you want it, just do it, like she never judged much. She just sort of was so encouraging. And and so I saw this entrepreneurial spirit super early.
Celina Lee
Yeah. I read that you had a lemonade stand, and then also cake business in high school. So you started early?
Katrina Markoff
Yes. So we lived on this, like, kind of like this Interstate, like, busy road, and there’d be a lot of like traffic in front of our road. And so we would have these garage sales. And I would run them with my siblings, and I just got really into that. And I Made Easy Bake up and cakes and sold them there. And, of course, lemonade. And, and then in high school, yeah, lemon cake business.
Celina Lee
And then you went to college at Vanderbilt. And then you studied chemistry and psychology?
Katrina Markoff
I know, I loved chemistry in high school. I had an amazing professor. And so I did all those, you know, advanced chemistry classes. I just had a great teacher. And then when I went to Vanderbilt, I thought I’d continue that. But then I got to my end of my senior year, and I was like, what am I going to do with my life, I don’t want to go to these career fairs. And I don’t want to, I don’t know, I felt uncomfortable interviewing. It was such an awkward thing. And I was a free spirit, you know, and I didn’t really, I don’t know, I guess I just never saw myself working for someone. And I wanted to follow my heart into something I loved. And my degrees were so broad, that I didn’t really connect with them on a tangible level. And it was never about money necessarily, for me, you know, I didn’t want to take a job just because it paid well out of school, like I wanted to, like do something that was going to make a difference, right. And I had this mom who was like, wildly supportive of following your heart in a very irreverent way. And, you know, when I graduated from Vanderbilt, there was no celebrity chef thing. I mean, there was Julia Child’s, but it wasn’t like what you see today, right? I didn’t have modeling about what I could do in food, there weren’t cool food companies. You know, there wasn’t storytelling and food.
Katrina Markoff
And so I was like, but I knew that I needed to follow my instincts, because I always had, like, I really believe in following signs. Like everything means something to me. And especially when I was younger, like I just always believed in my destiny was like just pointing me interactions and I all I need to do is pay attention. So that was a moment where I was like, I know I love cooking. I know I love it. It’s the way I communicate. Because I was a pretty shy kid. I had an older brother and a younger sister. So the I was, you know, I guess the middle children. I don’t know if they’re like quieter, faster or whatever they have to like, find their way to speak. And my way to speak was by making cakes like that was the way I started conversations. Like in high school, I had the cake business and at the lemonade stand.
Celina Lee
Your mom would come home and you would decorate her room and then and bake for her.
Katrina Markoff
Yeah. Yes. That was my way of showing gratitude to my mom. Expressing love. Yeah, that was it. And it was so funny. Like, I think now, I just probably wasn’t the most like literary, you know, strong person or something because that was really how I did it. It was by creating experiences and like it was around food. Yeah. So looking back now it’s very easy to see oh my gosh, I can see how that influenced me today. And that was sort of just my nature.
Celina Lee
So how did you make the decision to go to Paris and study cooking?
Katrina Markoff
Well, I had been given this book by a woman who was, I guess, a mentor for me. And it was called “Where the Heart Leads You, Success will Follow.” I think she must have self-published it because I can’t find the book.
Celina Lee
I tried to find, was looking for that book too.
Katrina Markoff
But it’s a great book, maybe I need to write it, maybe you need to write it, because you are talking so much about that. It was so awesome. Because it basically had a series of what I’d call manifestation exercises, but the thing is that you would go and write in a beautiful, natural place, like, what do I truly love, like what comes to my mind first, in a sort of like this brain mapping, and I was, you know, kept talking about cooking and horses, and you know, kind of circled the cooking thing. And, and then I went for it. And I was like, Mom, I really think I want to go to culinary school. And she’s like, what? And she’s like, well, if we’re going to go, go to the best one, the best school you can go to. And so I looked up schools and found Le Cordon Bleu in Paris. And, and I didn’t want to do the US schools, because most of them were like, really long, multi year programs. And I just did college, I just want to learn how to cook. I didn’t care about the business of cooking, I didn’t care about the sanitation of cooking, I didn’t care but I just wanted to learn. So I moved to Paris, like right after school, and thought I’d stay there for a few months, but end up staying there for like a year and a half and loved it. And got to go to the Le Cordon Bleu and then got to realize, I mean, I kind of realized, like, you know, the French were so as I called it provincial, and so dedicated to Escoffier, and like the methodology of that type of cooking, and I felt like there was so much disruption that needed to happen, and then I found El Bulli.
Celina Lee
Yeah. How was that like, working for the legendary chef?
Katrina Markoff
I know, that was just radical for me coming from the formal French, more traditional, you know, haute cuisine is, I’d say, to Ferran who didn’t have a gas line in the restaurant, so it was all electric. And in France, you would never think of cooking on electric. Right? And that was like, the first thing. I was like, wow, this is really unique. And then, you know, I had these amazing conversations with him. Because the my friend Maria, who we went together, her father had helped his best friend adopted a baby. So we were, we were sort of connected to him in a way that was a little bit deeper than the typical stagiaire. And, and he, and, you know, [he would say, like, what do you want to do next? And I’d say, Oh, I want to work at Michelin three star restaurants. And he’s like, Oh, what a waste of your time. Don’t do that. I’m like, what? really? He said, No, you have to use your own imagination and your own sense of taste to create something. And that’s how I heard it,] you know, and he didn’t speak English. So I heard it, I think in French, and he spoke French pretty well. But you know, whatever was interesting, like two different languages, not foreign tongues, and it sort of changed my whole life from there. And I ended up traveling with my friend Maria around the world to study food, we bought a ticket around the world, and wow, where did she go? What did you see? Oh, it was amazing. We saw, you know, mostly, I would say, you know, Southeast Asia was the place that really, it was my first entry to Asia, I had never been there before. And to see the ingredients that they have. They’re so fresh and so vivid, and so in front of you and all the smells, and it was shocking to me being this girl from Indiana, and, and I just it blew my mind. So that’s kind of where I was like, Whoa, and I started writing all these recipes, like modern dessert recipes, because I thought that we’d write a book together, Marie and I. And I thought, I quickly knew I wasn’t going to be a chef.
Celina Lee
How did you know that?
Katrina Markoff
The environment of a kitchen was really built for a very different person than myself. I mean, in general, I felt like the way I was spoken to and looked at was not jiving with, you know how I wanted to be. I felt like you know, coming in as stagiaire and a woman in a kitchen, which was definitely a minority in the kitchen to be a woman, like some of the chef’s would, you know, be really inappropriate with you, flirting with you and suggestions. And then if you didn’t play their game, they could be incredibly rude and mean. And I didn’t like that. And I didn’t want to become this hard edge, you know, tough mouth, I didn’t want to be that person. Like, I just wanted to be me, and didn’t feel like I really could be me. Because in the kitchen, there’s so much of a hierarchy. So, you know, you would never, I would never call myself a chef, you know, because you’re not a chef until you’re the executive chef, like, you’re just a cook. And in the US, when I came back, I remember that being such a shock to me, because people would say they were chef, but they weren’t the executive chefs. I’m like, I would never call myself a chef. It was just different. And, and, you know, you rely so much on obviously, people coming into your physical location, to interact with them. And I didn’t like that limitation, either. So I was thinking, oh, gosh, what am I going to do now? My god, I just sold my family that I wanted to be a chef, and I went to Paris and culinary school and traveled around the world. And now I don’t want to do that.
Celina Lee
When you’re traveling around the world, you’d go to different countries and just get a job there? And cook at the restaurants? How did you do that?
Katrina Markoff
Well, we ended up meeting a chef from a hotel. Who, because chefs in hotels, they move a lot. Like people in the hotel business, they tend to move all over globally, they work in, you know, the five star restaurant, five star hotel type restaurants. And so, these chefs were just so kind to help and connect. So they would connect us with the, you know, the chef at the Mandarin Oriental in Bangkok, or, you know, the chef at the Dusit Thani in southern Hua Hin in Thailand, so it just kind of one reference to the next and Peninsula in Hong Kong. And it was just like, so we got to meet all these amazing people along the way and never wasn’t really planned. It just was like, it was so highly intuitive and flowy. And it was so highly trust in the universe, that whole trip. I mean, I was what 21 or 22 like traveling around with my girlfriend in Asia and Europe, by ourselves, figuring it out, you know, it was just the most extraordinary experience. I was so blessed. And it was an interesting conflict too. [Because I also felt like, Oh, my God, what am I doing with my life? You know, by comparison, my friends are at these great companies, you know, whether it was…
Celina Lee
Yeah, like the normal job
Katrina Markoff
The normal jobs, the Goldman Sachs and the Anderson’s, and all these consulting and, and I was not making an income and feeling like, by comparison, am I going to ever make it? And you know, the doubts that come
Celina Lee
Of course.
Katrina Markoff
Which are always there. And then you also have this sort of like, instinctual like following that you have to do this and that it will make sense eventually, and believing in that. That path was going to be okay.] And so yeah, so I get back essentially to the States, and I’m like, Oh, my gosh, I don’t want to be a chef.
Celina Lee
Was your mom, Oh my gosh, what are you going to do now?
Katrina Markoff
Oh my God, are you going to just like live off of me forever? Like, what’s the deal? And I’m like, No, I mean, no, no, I couldn’t, I didn’t, I wasn’t that person I wasn’t built to do that. I needed like, everybody, you need to do something that you feel like you love and that could make a difference.
Celina Lee
So how did you have the idea to start a chocolate company after, you know, working at El Bulli, going to Le Cordon Bleu before that, and then traveling all around the world working in all these amazing kitchen in so many different countries. How did that idea come to you to start a chocolate company?
Katrina Markoff
Well, so my uncle, well, he was really my mom’s first cousin, but he was down in Dallas, and he had said, you know, why don’t you come and help me, I’m starting this company. And you can just help me do everything and anything you’ll learn while you’re figuring out what you want to do next. Because I had intended to write like a cookbook, a modern dessert cookbook with my friend. But she didn’t end up liking any of my ideas was totally another heartbreak for me. And I was at ground zero again.
And so I went to Dallas and I started, you know, helping him and be like, what am I going to do next? Because this didn’t work out either. So now like, I have very little direction on where I’m going to go. And he said, You know, I need you to do everything. So first task is helped me buy beautiful furniture and plates and we’re going to sell them and online. This is 20 years ago. So this is the Beginning of website ecommerce, and we’re going to put it in a catalog.
So I would go and help him pick these furniture pieces and plates. And he’s like, you have to remember people aren’t able to touch this. So they need to be, they need to have you help them describe it as if they were in front of it, like, what are the attributes? Who made it? How is it crafted? Why is that special? You’ve got to tell story. Okay, so then I then wrote the copy for all these things to put into the catalog and onto the website. And then he said, Okay, now we have to shoot it, you know, so I need you to help photo stylist, so like, bring props and like think again, like, what’s the scene? What’s the environment? What makes us interesting. So then I learned a lot about photo styling. And then he’d have me, of course, answer the phone for the customers, you’d have to ship the product.
And he said, Okay, now we’re going to plan for the fourth quarter books for holiday. And people love to buy food stuffs, go to the mart and see what you can find. And I went, and I saw, like, an incredible amount of boxed chocolates, and fondant and things like that. And I started tasting them. And they were, you know, terrible. It was, you know, super sweet flavorings, artificial this, artificial that. And people believed these brands were quality brands, and they were actually eating things that weren’t good for them. So I started to think about that.
And, Neiman Marcus was based in Dallas, which was just such an iconic, you know, department store, you know, talk about experience and their heritage, it was just incredible. So that was a big influence to just being around them. And they had an epicure department and I saw the food that they carried in that. And then I went home to my apartment one night, and I had on this necklace from the Nagaland tribes in India. And I just for some reason, I just loved this next necklace, it’s such an energy to it. And then I started reading a lot about the Nagaland people and realizing how special this culture was.
And I went into my kitchen, and I had all these ingredients from my travels. Because you know, again, I was going to write this cookbook, and I made this curry and coconut with milk chocolate truffle and I decided to name it, Naga. You know, I had this sort of copywriting and like the storytelling in me. So it was like in that moment where it was like this lightning bolt flash of like an epiphany. And I was like, Oh my god, like, this is the whitespace This is like what I meant to do like to tell stories about these places, and people and religions and ingredients that I fell in love with on my travels through this medium of chocolate. And chocolate is the medium, and it’s so powerful.
But it’s a story that’s really the connection here between. And it’s the sort of opposites attracting, like things that didn’t go together naturally, or that made it exciting, at least to me exactly. And there was nothing fresh in the marketplace. There was nothing telling stories. There were people that wanted to give beautiful gifts, there really wasn’t luxury chocolate, and there wasn’t soulful chocolate. And so the whole thing that night came together in this fury of, of making all these chocolates with all these ingredients, olive oil and, and paprika. And wasabi and curry. And it was wild. And I named them all and I wrote stories for them.
And I brought him into the office the next day. And people were like that disgusting. Why? Just try it! Like it was it was wild because people didn’t want to try it. I mean, this was you know, I don’t know the audience here but whoever knew about food in 20 years will remember that. Like, there weren’t exotic ingredients in food. Not in potato chips, not in tea, not in chocolate. So it was so bizarre. Yeah, for people. But when you tried it, I could see people’s faces change. They were like, they were shocked and stunned and amazed and like intrigued and like, curious.
Katrina Markoff
And I thought my god this is what I meant to do. Now open people’s minds up to new ideas through chocolate and through story and will we become more open to cultural diversity. Will we become more less judgmental about others and more curious about others as opposed to like, I don’t like whatever you know, like start with curiosity, not negativity and judgment. So it was that that made me be like I this is I’m in the right place. This is what I need to do. This is this is this means something To me, and it, I think means something to other people.
Celina Lee
I think that’s what I loved about your brand, because I feel like there’s a story you want to tell about different cultures and different people through your chocolate. And I think in the same way that when you, for the first time, brought to people chocolate with curry, spices or bacon or whatever exotic ingredients people were like “no, eww, gross, I don’t want to try that” I think that has, very similar in a way, a lot of times people are fearful of the unknown. So it’s because they didn’t have any contact or exposure to different people, different race, different culture, different language, that they are afraid of what’s different from them. But once you try the chocolate once you meet these people hear their stories, they open their mind.
Katrina Markoff
Yes.
Celina Lee
So you know you are making the world a more peaceful place one chocolate at a time. Traveling the world through chocolate, right? Yes, one love one chocolate. I love it. How did you come up with the name, Vosges?
Katrina Markoff
Well, I had, you know, when I lived in Paris, I had always had the hardest time saying the Place des Vosges. So basically, I never went there because I didn’t want to tell the taxi driver. I would always say wrong. It was such a hard Germanic Alsatian word. And so I but there was a Michelin three star restaurant there, which is still there called L’Ambroisie and we had gone there and the chef from the school the Le Cordon Bleu called the head to the chef there and said hey, can you take care of these people, these students for me and so they had brought out something at the very end of the course that was a truffle beignets and they had taken ganache which is the center of the truffle.
And they had frozen it and then dipped it in a beignets batter. And then while frying, the ganache started to get liquefied and melt. And so when it was perfectly brown and crispy, they take it out and they bring it straight to the table and they say you have to eat this à la mode and you would pop this little crispy beignets in your mouth and then like this burst of liquid chocolate.
And I fell in love with chocolate that day because as a kid I had never liked chocolate, didn’t have good chocolate. I didn’t, I thought chocolate tasted like sour milk. Yeah, that’s what I knew, but, and then I was like, Oh my god, this is incredible. And so, you know, then I, you know, went on my way. And then I kept thinking about, you know, what would I call this chocolate company with these interesting ingredients?
And what came up for me and I wrote, I have even the papers, I write down all these names on this paper, the back of the paper, the front of the paper, I’m like, which one? Which one? Which one? I asked all these people, which one? should I name my company? What am I going to do? And then I kept being coming back to Vosges, because it was the moment that I fell in love with it. And I thought, I cannot call this Vosges because no one will ever be able to say it. And I’m just setting myself up for failure. And then I said, You know what, there are plenty of brands that people don’t know how to say perfectly.
Celina Lee
That’s true.
Katrina Markoff
And so, in when you do know how to say it, you sort of in the know, so I’m like, I’m just going to go with it. So then it was like Vosges Haut-Chocolat, meaning like, high level of chocolate crafted, couture, you know, sort of relates to like, haute couture, but in the way of chocolate, and yeah, so then I just, you know, again, [I didn’t overthink it. Sometimes, I found, as I move through my life, you know, that I would get, I’d have moments in my life where I was, like, more insecure, you know, or people must know better than me. And that’s true people do. But then there’s some things that like, you have to remember that you also weigh in as your own voice. And you can’t negate that and think everybody else is smarter than you. Because like some things, you just, you just got to do it your way. You have to do. So it’s like, always finding those times, like, when is it right the advice you get and when is it right, what your voice is saying.]
Celina Lee
And I think you started this company in 1998. So it’s been 20 years. Congratulations! This is your first time starting a company. So how did you know what to do?
Katrina Markoff
I mean, it’s my first time starting it. And honestly, I’ve never had like a real job either. Like I worked in college, I worked in high school, but I mean, not like, I didn’t start a career as an investment banker or something like you.
Celina Lee
Most people will say, oh you know, I want to do this. But I don’t have the experience. I can’t do that.
Katrina Markoff
Exactly.
Celina Lee
So how did you have the courage to do it? How did you figure it all out?
Katrina Markoff
You know what, [I think there were a few things that happened along the way that made me really believe so much in myself. And I think the first thing was at a young age, I had a really strong pull from my inner voice or my intuitive self, I just did. I thought a lot. I had a lot of downtime, I played outside a lot. And I got really, I got very close to what that voice is call it the soul called intuitive call it I don’t know, but that. And so that made me, it kind of made me feel strong, that I had that connection.] And I think also like being Macedonian, there was so much pride around that for my nobody probably even knows what Macedonian is. Not many people. But for my family the way I was raised to believe because I was Macedonian I was special.
Celina Lee
Oh Wow.
Katrina Markoff
And so there was like, a silent pride that was in me also. And then [I had a mom, you know, who was wild and took risks. And I’m sort of modeled, she’s taken risks and failed. And she’s also taken risks and won. And even on both sides of that she has been optimistic, especially on the failure side, really, if I if we had more time, and I can tell you about the stories of my mom’s journey. And it’s just incredible that things have happened to her. And this woman is not rocked. By becoming negative. She didn’t do it. She was just even more optimistic. I’m just thinking, I get goosebumps thinking about because imagine being raised by somebody like that. Yes, it is so incredible. And so like, I think I just, I just channeled that to no end.] So when I started the company, also was quite competitive and competitive with my brother. He also had his own company. So we always had like this thing. And I was always racing against him and he was always telling me I couldn’t do it. And I was always saying I could and so some people they said that people say you can’t do it and they like believe it Some people say you can’t do and they like want to fight you I was more like a fight you for you. You’re wrong, you know. So I just I was born and also what I saw, I think that’s a little bit of it. And you know, it’s funny, you know here at Vosges, I am so proud to say there has been many people who have become entrepreneurs from this place. And that’s really I really hope for that because people, you know, a lot of people want to play safe and afraid of like risk. And then they come here and they’re like, Oh my god, she can do it, I can do it.
Celina Lee
Speaking of which, you also started a company called Wild Ophelia. And then you create an accelerated program for girls in high school and college, who have the dream of starting a business in food. Yeah, it goes right back to what you’re saying.
Katrina Markoff
Yeah, it does. I mean, that really is just a reflection of, you know, giving back and kind of going back and, and I love it. I love doing that. We’ve had two accelerators come through the program. So far. This year, we had this amazing, amazing woman, Jamie Kim, who is at Cornell, I think she’s a senior this year started this incredible granola business with grass fed butter. And she’s just super smart. And I mean, just amazing. So you know, how, you know how it feels to help people, you know, with their dreams, it’s like, it’s basically the American dream. Like, we all believe in that. And we all like to help make that happen. So this is basically my way of doing that.
Celina Lee
That’s amazing. So it’s been a 20 year journey for you. And I think Vosges even grew during the recession, when other companies were going out of business. And that’s really incredible.
Katrina Markoff
And, yeah, I mean, you know, it’s like, with chocolate at that time in 2008, 2009, you know, it was, it is affordable luxury that you don’t want to necessarily give up just because times are hard, maybe you won’t go on the vacation, but you still want to treat yourself. And so chocolate is like, Great liquor in great spirits and great lipstick, you know, it’s sort of things that you want to still indulge in. And so yeah, so we were really lucky for that.
Celina Lee
I’m sure it wasn’t all smooth sailing for you. Because life is an entrepreneur, you know, has a lot of ups and downs, what was the most difficult time for you?
Katrina Markoff
You know, honestly, I think the most difficult time has really been for me the last three or four years, because we went from being completely at capacity totally maxed out, to having to jump to the next level. So we built this building and put a whole new equipment line in, built a ton of capacity, had a lot of changes with the team. And it was sort of like the plateaued the business that we didn’t think that was going to happen.
And like, sort of been like, you know, struggling, I think with that next level and, you know, businesses go through these cycles, and we’re finally coming out of it. But it’s been a challenge. You know, I remember, like, when I first started, it took four years to be profitable, now sort of almost feel like, in a way, I’m starting over again, in the sense that like, this new building, this new space, the second brand, it was so much at one time, that it felt like it was starting from zero, the amount of time that I’ve had to put into the these years is so much like this, and similar to the beginning. And you know, you, at least I always look at other be like, oh, everything must be great and perfect. And they’re just growing and everything.
Celina Lee
That’s what people think of you.
Katrina Markoff
I know, you know, like, every day I swear, every day that that phone I hold in my hand has plenty of ups and downs in it. That energy of like, something awesome happened, something terrible happened. Gotta fix that. Oh, my God gotta fix that. Oh, the people think this. I gotta do something with that. Yeah, it’s never it’s never just up. I mean, maybe other people are lucky. I just, I can tell you like, it’s just every day is like a mood wave, you know? And it’s, it’s, you know, and it’s, and that’s where, like, I was kind of, I think over the last four years which have been so you know, difficult for me so much. I was like, relying on what do other people think.
What should I do? Help me, Save me and like at the end of it, I’m like, you know what, [you know who saves you do you save you know, nobody saves you? You know, stop being a victim, stop your stupid talking to yourself negatively like just freaking do something about it. So like, you know, kind of like been finding my you know, my energy, my mojo my vibe again, I’m like, going with what I really feel like is right and sort of going back to the core of what the brand is in was and you know, the beautiful experiential and gifting like, just going to deeper and deeper into that, and, and that’s it, you know, the direct to consumer and the gifting like the, that whole thing is really our platform of best, you know, I think so. So yeah.
Celina Lee
You’ve achieved so much success, what have you learned about success that you can share with us?
Katrina Markoff
I mean, I guess it’s such a hard one, because I don’t know if I’m really successful.
Celina Lee
Katrina, you are! I have to remind you/
Katrina Markoff
You know, I think, I think, you know, success is about is about a team, it’s about a leader, it’s about trusting your instincts. And it’s about being real. It’s about collaboration. Because it really does feel successful, the best, you know, the saying, like, I love helping entrepreneurs with this accelerator program, or, like giving back or like, it’s sort of is the same with a team, it’s like, what I’m discovering is that when you view your team as like, partners, then it feels totally different. It’s like, it’s kind of just recently learned. And that, to me is like, success, because there’s good vibes. When you view your team, as partners, as opposed to like, employees from a traditional sense.
Katrina Markoff
And you get more out of it, like when I brainstorm here with people openly, I am like, wow, like, the amount of incredible ideas and creativity that comes from people is so far beyond what I have. And that sort of like, the, you know, the sum of the people together is far greater than the individuals, you know, added up, you know, quantitatively and so, I know, that’s a trite phrase, but it’s like, it really does resonate with me. And it’s exciting for everyone, because they feel like they’re part of something like part of a movement, part of a creative process. And though some people think that they’re not creative, everybody is. And so when you have that ability to connect people through that, it gives like, a vibrational charge to everybody. It just feels like we’re on this team,
Celina Lee
I see.
Celina Lee
You’re doing it together.
Katrina Markoff
You’re doing it together. And that, to me is really, I think, success doesn’t exist in numbers for me. Success is most rewarding, when it’s an energetic sort of concentric, you know, connectivity with your crew, you know, and that’s fresh. This is a fresh thing for me to be thinking and I have just been feeling it lately It’s been like, so good.
Celina Lee
Which brings me to the next question. We all know, no one succeeds alone. No one achieves dreams alone. So who helped you to get to where you are now?
Katrina Markoff
Oh, I’ve had so many angels, you know, show up.
Celina Lee
I call them angels too!
Katrina Markoff
Yeah. So many angels. I mean, I would say like, my first mentor was Larry Bernstein, who I met on the phone. And he was in Chicago, and I was in Dallas, and he had a big European importing food business. And I could not find good chocolate in the country at the time. And he helped me source chocolate and cacao. And he was like, an angel. And he just helped me and then he helped me bring it in. And he just so like, I think I’ve had people like that, you know, Jeff Hackman, who was a big lawyer, and he just was like, I think I’m just going to help you pro bono. I’m just going to do this for you. Because, you know, people, I don’t know, like I said, I keep talking about this American dream, because it’s such a real thing. And it’s like, people want to help other people. It just feels good. You know, America especially is such a generous country. When you think about the amount of money we donate to charities and causes and things like that. It’s just incredible. And I think it’s just in our spirit, you know, and, and so, yeah, I mean, I’ve just feel like I’ve been so lucky with so many that have, you know, I’ve interacted with.
Celina Lee
After 20 years of being an entrepreneur and having achieved so much success. When you look back to your younger self, what would you want to say to your younger Katrina?
Katrina Markoff
I would continue to say, You got this, you know, like, you know, it’s, for me, it’s all about like, positive talk, you know, like encouragement, like, [don’t give up and keep doing what you think is right. Don’t doubt, don’t doubt just keep going, you know, and that’s what I say to everyone too. It’s like, follow your gut, like, yeah, at all cost, do it. And it’s so scary. And sometimes, like the universe has to do things to you. Because you didn’t do it first because you were like, like pushing yourself into a different direction. I always say, when people like, get fired, or have something big happened, the breakup or the, it’s like, because it was oftentimes you were stagnant, not doing anything about it. And you had to have this happen to you because you weren’t going to be you know, so. Like, try Remember to be proactive for yourself. And like, it’s take the leap. What’s the worst that can happen?]
Celina Lee
Yeah. So you’ve achieved so much what is your dream now?
Katrina Markoff
Oh, you know what I’m like, I’m really into, I’m really into mindfulness and energy, and like intention. And like, you can see on my desk here, I’ve got like, a million crystals.
Celina Lee
I know we’re, like, surrounded by so many crystals.
Katrina Markoff
I know I’m like working on..
Celina Lee
And candlelight. It’s the first time I’m actually doing an interview with a beautiful candlelight.
Katrina Markoff
I know it’s got like, I know, I love I mean, you know, like, I love I love the power within and I love energy. I love magic. I love you know, rituals, and like the power of manifestation and all that stuff. And so we’re starting to just blend it more into the chocolates because our guided chocolate tasting is very much like a meditation when you read what we say on how to taste chocolate, and close your eyes and take three deep ujjayi breath and then open your eyes and then look at the chocolate and what do you see, describe it and you know all those sensorial steps around, you know, touch and smell and hearing and, and then when you taste that chocolate, even if you’re not a fan of the flavor profile, like let’s say it has like, anise flavor, which some people like and some don’t, you can still appreciate it at a level that you probably couldn’t have, if you weren’t, you know, in your body and like, you sort of viscerally like, aware of things.
And I think that the crystals have been around forever, forever in ancient ever. Egypt, China wherever, you know, and the healing powers of them and you know, the psychic abilities of them and you know, all the things that they can do in these million year old, you know, energetic vibrational things have energy, but they also can make your energy sort of go into motion. And so very much like if you were to put an intention into chocolate, and then eat that, from a cellular level, you start to change and you know, people have done you know, this is ancient, this is nothing new.
This is wisdom, though. And this is ancient wisdom. And it’s the same thing that you can do with crystals, like you can hold a crystal in your hand, you can put an intention for it and then you are reminded with that crystal to that you have set that intention in the crystal does work to shift things for you. So I feel like there is this sort of the same kind of thing that happens with chocolate with cacao beans, which is also super ancient and was so you know, there was such a sort of spiritual quality to it, you know, gave reality to Montezuma It was so you know, valuable, they viewed it as currency, like there was it was buried in tombs with people.
So I think they are similar in many ways. And so I’m trying to connect them through collections that we’re doing now. And, and through our boutiques. And you know, I think as the world gets to this maxed out point with over communication, we need these small reminders, rituals, moments, things that can help ground us again, And be human again, and you know, of nature again. And so, like, this is so Vosges 2.0 I think, for me and for us.
Celina Lee
What would be your words of advice for people who are trying to achieve their dreams?
Katrina Markoff
I would say dream big and write it down.
Celina Lee
I always say that. For my community. Yes. Yeah. Write it down, right?
Katrina Markoff
Write it down.
Celina Lee
Do you write down your dreams?
Katrina Markoff
I do, oh my gosh, I have 750 like whatever in my in my phone. Actually, I do have a journal but I keep notes on all my ideas and I write them down. I will say I do think it’s for me better to write it on paper.
Celina Lee
Me too.
Katrina Markoff
Because it’s, you visually see the way you write it. And then visually, I remember the page.
Celina Lee
Absolutely.
Katrina Markoff
And I think writing is incredibly important.
Celina Lee
Right it gives you more clarity. Yeah, there’s like a magical power and actually committing it to paper.
Katrina Markoff
There is there is and they say that’s why like cursive writing is so important for people to know how to do because kids because it’s it, there’s a connectivity in the brain when the idea flow. So when you actually write something, the idea is richer, bigger, deeper the way you have to write and so yeah, I love, I believe in like, the writing the physical, I guess, what is it depiction visual of your idea? on a piece of paper?
Celina Lee
Absolutely. Yeah. . And I certainly have encountered that in my life where I would write down my dreams. And many years later, I would actually discover, oh, my God, I’ve done all of this. And I had it written down.
Katrina Markoff
I know! Yes, I did that as a kid, too. I wrote down I want to live in another country, I want to learn how to fly a plane. And like this list of things, and I will not I’ll never forget the list. And I just kept checking things off the list.
Celina Lee
Me too. My mom still has my dream list from like, my middle school years. And my sister took a picture of it and sent it to me the other day, and I saw that I had achieved all of it, including writing a book and all of that. And so I absolutely believe there’s power and magic in writing down your dreams on paper, and then it will become a reality. It absolutely will. Yeah. I have to ask you. Do you have a favorite flavor?
Katrina Markoff
Oh gosh, it depends on my mood. And what is my favorite now? Right at this very moment…
Celina Lee
Is it like asking you to pick your favorite child?
Katrina Markoff
Oh, my gosh, it is. But I’m thinking to myself, lately, I’ve been like, looking like I taste everything, you know, that we make. And there’s been some that I’m like, Oh, where’s that one? I really want to try that one. There’s a one in the new vault that I love. So we did a collection that’s launching just in a couple weeks here of a 20 year retrospective of chocolates that are no longer in our main collections. And they’re coming back for this one.
And there’s one that I love because it forces me to eat it so slowly, and I just appreciate it so much. It’s called le truth paprika, and it’s, it’s just a fresh ganache and dark chocolate 72%. And then it’s rolled in a special paprika from Hungary. And it is so beautiful and unique. And I love to combine it with something like, you know, your favorite most delicious, deep, rich, you know, wine or cocktail. And like, I’ve been craving that one lately. But this collection is like so special to me because it’s basically a retrospective of my trip around the world. And I like them all, you know.
Celina Lee
I love the Woolloomooloo. You used them have that in a bar, you now have it in a truffle. You have to bring it back to the bar.
Katrina Markoff
I have to write that down. People love that one.
Celina Lee
Why is that gone? I also love the Barcelona bar. A lot of my guy friends like the bacon one. At first they’re like, what is this? And then, you know now everyone like, yeah, I can’t wait to try it. I have to tell you my story with Vosges. The first day I walked into your Soho store in New York, I just like fell in love. And I was like, Oh my god, I want to like live in this store.
And I went to UC Berkeley for law school, but I was in New York to study for my bar exam. And I rented a small little apartment in Soho. And I was so tired from staring at law books all day. And then every day I would take a little coffee break chocolate break, and walked and go to your store. And then after a while the people start to recognize me they’re like, Oh, she’s here again. And then I’d tell them the story of how I’m studying for the bar and they would give me pep talks and encouragement.
So that was like the highlight of my day every day. And people are so kind and encouraging. So I will always remember that so I painted my bedroom in purple. My room looks kind of similar to this store and I brought so many of my families and my friends like the people who are so close to me to the store. So Katrina, thank you so much for creating such a beautiful chocolate and beautiful store and beautiful brand. And thank you so much for doing what you do.
Katrina Markoff
Thank you!
Celina Lee
I appreciate it and I cannot wait to share your story with my listener. So thank you so much.
Katrina Markoff
Thank you. This was awesome.
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Katrina.
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